Authors: Meghan Etsey, Vashti Price, Amelia Ramzan, MD – on behalf of AMWA Gender Equity Task Force
“Our Voices, Our Future” is a podcast by the Gender Equity Task Force of the American Medical Women’s Association that explores the challenges, stories, and successes of those working to advance gender equity in medicine. Through candid conversations with changemakers, advocates, and leaders, each episode dives into issues like pay gaps, leadership disparities, and inclusive workplace culture. Tune in to be inspired, informed, and empowered to take action. Full episode listening links are available below the transcription.
Meghan: Welcome to Our Voices, Our Future, a podcast where we amplify the voices driving change in equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee of the American Medical Women’s Association. We’re here to challenge norms, break barriers, and ignite conversations that matter.
Meghan: I’m Megan Etsey, and in each episode, we bring you candid conversations with leaders, change makers, and advocates, working to create a more inclusive and just world. No more silence, no more waiting. It’s time to get Our Voices, Our Future. Today, we are welcoming Dr. Olivia Ramzan. She is a family medicine physician with a diverse practice spanning rural emergency medicine, city urgent care, and telehealth. Her medical journey began at St. George’s University, where she started school two weeks after receiving her acceptance. She went on to complete a family medicine residency. She was granted a full medical license to start moonlighting in her second year and served as chief resident during her final year. Her experience ranges from New York City to rural Arkansas. She’s passionate about healthcare, accessibility, and mentorship in medicine.
Meghan: So, can you tell us about your experience navigating professional spaces where assertiveness and likability are expected, and sometimes, intention with each other?
Dr.Ramzan: Yes, absolutely. So it’s normal to want to be liked, right? But then the problem is that everybody likes different things. Somebody may like cake and dislike ice cream. That doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with ice cream. They don’t like it. In a professional setting, there’s always a common goal. We are here to achieve something, and chasing likability shifts that focus away from the goal. It’s directionless. There will always be somebody who doesn’t like you, and that may have nothing to do with you.
On the other hand, being assertive helps direct the movement towards the goal and focuses on the bigger picture. I find that the less you chase likability, the more natural it’s gonna feel to be assertive. There’s really no point in chasing something that you can’t change. You can’t make that person, you know, like ice cream if they don’t. More importantly, it’s your core values, your integrity, communication, and your actions that can demonstrate who you are. A lot of people will like you for it, and many won’t like you for it either, and that’s totally okay. It’s way more impactful to be respected than to be liked.
Meghan: A very great little line. It’s very important to be respected rather than to be liked. So, how, in your experience, have you seen assertive behaviors perceived differently in women versus men, respectively, in medicine?
Dr.Ramzan: That’s a good question because it largely depends on who is perceiving. Two people observe and perceive the same situation in two completely different ways. So, because of that, it’s not something I ever focused on, because again, I can’t control that.
Meghan: That’s very fair. Have you ever felt pressured to soften your communication style to be perceived as likable? If so, how did you handle that situation?
Dr.Ramzan: No. I have not, but I have learned to refine my communication style to better suit my audience. It’s important to learn to communicate in a way that puts people at ease. You have to talk to people where they’re at because that way they can understand you, and then you can also understand them. You can’t collaborate if you’re not good with communication.
Meghan: Can you speak a little more about how you have learned to meet people where they’re at?
Dr.Ramzan: So, during my chief year, we had, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Enneagrams. I’m no expert by any means. It is not a personality test, but guides or provides insight into someone’s motivations. Our goal was to have everyone take the quiz and then use that as a tool on how I can better help you achieve your goals, or how I can better communicate with you in a way that you’ll hear me. Because my purpose there was not to tell anyone what to do. It’s to be supportive. How do you best support somebody? It’s understanding their needs and how to address those needs. So that they can be the best that they can be. So that’s an example of how we would kind of adjust. With an easy example, if you were to explain something to a five-year-old, you would explain it differently than you would to a friend or somebody your age. So that’s another example of adjusting your communication to fit the audience.
Meghan: Okay, perfect, thank you. Do you think the expectations around likability create different professional challenges for women in gender diverse positions?
Dr.Ramzan: No. I think the worry and expectation around being liked is largely an internal struggle and creates a challenge for people in general, not just women or gender diverse physicians. Focusing on the need to be liked gets in the way of someone’s potential because you’re focusing on something you can’t change. You’re essentially chasing your tail, and then because of that, you’re unable to reach your goals and create change in the profession.
Meghan: So I think I’m hearing you say it’s more of an internal struggle with each person’s thoughts of needing to be liked. So then I personally would say that wanting to be liked is kind of natural. How do you dismantle that within yourself to come to that conclusion that, you know what, you don’t really need to be liked, you need to be respected.
Dr.Ramzan: Like I said before, you can’t change what people like or don’t like. All you can do is, it’s gonna sound cheesy, but to be yourself. You can’t change who you are to fit what somebody else likes because universal acceptance is not possible to achieve. There isn’t anyone or anything that every single person likes. So, just getting rid of the need to be liked, just taking that out of the vocabulary, makes it easier to be yourself and do what you need to do.
Meghan: Okay, so how can we work together with leadership teams to dismantle the double standard around assertiveness? So, those who are seen as assertive are not liked because of that assertiveness.
Dr.Ramzan: Again, we remain, keeping our focus on the bigger picture, and then likability goes. I’d spoken before about how respect is more powerful and impactful because it focuses on someone’s qualities, achievements, and abilities. Some of it can also come from the type of person they are and their character. I have encountered people I respected but didn’t like, but that was nothing on them. That was a preference of mine.
Meghan: It’s very powerful to have that introspection and say that just because you’re not a fan of a situation, that’s because of you and not because of any external factors. What role does allyship and leadership play in creating a safe space, creating space for assertiveness to be recognized as more of a strength rather than a liability, where people are looking down upon it?
Dr.Ramzan: I think sometimes assertiveness gets confused with aggressiveness or arrogance, and the latter two can definitely be liabilities. There are several ways to demonstrate assertiveness, whether it be through your verbal or body language. Being assertive isn’t necessarily being rude or harsh or mean. I don’t think it ever should be that way. When leadership demonstrates assertiveness accordingly and creates a safe space that invites discussion and collaboration, it definitely shows that it’s a strength rather than a liability.
Meghan: So, what final advice or encouragement would you offer to those striving to be assertive in their authentic self as a leader, particularly women and marginalized genders within medicine?
Dr.Ramzan: This might be a really unpopular opinion, but I would shift the focus away from whether that leader is a woman or a particular gender or a man or any other label in that sense. What if we look at that person as the leader? Focus on the character, their integrity, and their message. There’s always gonna be people who don’t agree with you or don’t like you, and there’s nothing we can do about it. We just need to let go of that part. Focus on self-development and growing your self-confidence, vision, and goals, and let that lead you forward.
Meghan: Very fair. Thank you so much for that. This has been a great segment full of powerful advice, being respected, and creating an environment where you are respected. Thank you so much for the inspiration and intel you have given us today.
Dr.Ramzan: Thank you, Megan.
Meghan: So that’s a wrap on this episode of Our Voices Our Future. We hope today’s conversation inspired, challenged, and reminded you of the power of raising your voice. The fight for equity doesn’t stop here. Join us in the movement. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. If you love this episode, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Until next time, stay bold, vocal, and keep the conversation going. This is Our Voices, Our Future.
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About the Authors
Meghan Etsey is a third year medical student from St. George’s University. She has a Bachelors of Arts in Biology and a Bachelors of Arts in Nutrition and Dietetics from Bluffton University in Bluffton, Ohio. She served as the President of the St. George’s University’s Women in Medicine chapter in St. George, Grenada where she expanded relationships with the community and worked towards educating women and helping the youth. She is also a member of the Gender Equity Task Force and Sex and Gender Health Collaborative Committees within the American Medical Women’s Association. When she is not pursuing medicine, you can find her with her friends and family on different road trips and adventures exploring the world.
Vashti Price is a third-year medical student at St. George’s University. She holds a Bachelor of Science in Biology from the University of Louisiana at Lafayette, a Master’s in Biological Sciences from Alcorn State University, and a Master’s in Health Sciences from Meharry Medical College. With a strong passion for public health and health equity, Vashti has dedicated much of her time to volunteering with underserved populations, including individuals experiencing homelessness and children in need. Her commitment to service continues through her involvement with the American Medical Women’s Association, where she serves on the Gender Equity Task Force and the Sex & Gender Health Collaborative Committees. Vashti is particularly interested in the intersection of medicine, public health, and community outreach. Outside her academic and clinical pursuits, she enjoys spending time with friends and family, attending festivals, exploring new cities, and winding down with a good Netflix series.